PHL 105Y October 3, 2005

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PHL 105YOctober 3, 2005

• For Wednesdays class, read to the end of chapter
  five of the Republic
• For Fridays tutorial, answer one of the
  following two questions (write about a page it
  will be collected)
• Starting at 382a, Socrates discusses the idea of
  the true falsehood. What is this, and how is
  it different from a spoken lie?
• Starting at 414d, Socrates discusses a myth
  according to which citizens of the ideal
  community have different kinds of metal in their
  souls. Why is this myth supposed to be part of
  the culture of the ideal community?

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Chapter 2 The Challenge to Socrates

• Is morality good in itself, or is it some kind of
  compromise?

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The three kinds of good

• 1. Those that are valued just for their own sake,
  and not for the sake of their consequences.
• 2. Those that are valued both for their own sake,
  and for the sake of their consequences.
• 3. Those that are valued just for their
  consequences.
• What kind of good is morality, according to most
  people? and according to Socrates?

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Glaucon Morality as a compromise

• Why be moral? Just for the sheer good-in-itself
  fun of being moral?
• Whats really driving us we dont want other
  people to treat us immorally.
• But it would be fun if I myself could act
  immorally and get away with it.

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Glaucon Morality as a compromise

• The worst scenario other people wrong me, and I
  get no compensation
• The best scenario I can do anything (even
  immoral things) and other people cant strike
  back
• The social compromise we enter into a contract
  that bars everyone from wrongdoing. So morality
  is a type 3 good (a bitter pill you take for its
  good effects).

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Glaucon Morality as a compromise

• Since morality is a compromise, it is endorsed
  because, while it may not be good, it does gain
  value by preventing people from doing wrong.
  (359a)
• The story of the ring of Gyges is supposed to
  convince us that morality is only ever practiced
  reluctantly did it convince you?

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Glaucon the extremes of morality and immorality

• Is it always better to be moral?
• Imagine an extremely successful, well-regarded
  immoral person

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Glaucon the extremes of morality and immorality

• Is it always better to be moral?
• Imagine an extremely successful, well-regarded
  immoral person
• and an impoverished, suffering, ill-regarded
  moral person
• Who is better off?

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What about the afterlife?

• One might be tempted to respond to the story
  about the two statues (the very immoral but
  successful guy and the moral but unsuccessful
  guy) by saying that the immoral person will have
  a bad time in the afterlife, while the good guy
  goes to heaven.
• Given what he is trying to show, Socrates cant
  make that move. Why not?

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Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue

• Fathers tell their sons to be moral, not for the
  sheer joy of being moral, but for the sake of
  getting advantages, especially the advantage of a
  good reputation (among people, and among the
  gods). Religious leaders say similar things.
• If morality is so good-in-itself, why do we bribe
  children (and adults, for that matter) with
  stories of how moral people will be paid off with
  soft couches and nice things to eat and drink in
  the afterlife?

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Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue

• Why do our poets talk about morality as something
  difficult, requiring great self-discipline?
• Why do our poets say that immorality is often
  more rewarding?
• Why do we admire people who are immoral but
  powerful, and look down on moral people who are
  powerless or poor?

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Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue

• What impression of morality does the young person
  end up with?
• Morality is not good-in-itself, but good on
  account of its advantages the best thing would
  be to get those advantages while still profiting
  from immorality
• Most advantageous to seem moral, not actually to
  be moral

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The challenge, summed up

• Socrates is challenged to prove that the worse
  possible thing that can occur in the mind is
  immorality, and that morality is the best. 366e
• Socrates is asked to show that morality itself is
  good and immorality itself is bad.
• whether or not it is hidden from the eyes of
  gods and men we are not concerned with the
  appearance of morality, but morality itself

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Chapter 3 Basic Morality

• Morality can belong to communities as well as
  individuals
• Socrates idea lets start by examining
  large-scale community morality, then return to
  the individual

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The birth of community morality

• Why think back to the initial formation of a
  community?
• Why engage in this imaginary exercise, rather
  than, say, looking at an existing community and
  asking, what is morality here in Athens (or
  Mississauga) right now?

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What forces drive the formation of communities?

• Individuals find that they are not
  self-sufficient
• We can satisfy our basic requirements better by
  specializing one person becomes a farmer,
  another a weaver, another a builder, another a
  shoemaker

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Specialization

• people are inherently suitable for different
  activities people have different natures
  (370ab)
• Specialized workers are likely to be more
  productive and do work of better quality (370bc)
• If specialization is so helpful, then we need
  toolmakers, merchants, and so on soon the
  community is catering to non-essential needs

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The community expands

• Before long, the community has added actors,
  doctors, barbers, daycare workers, manufacturers
  of cosmetics .

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The community expands

• Before long, the community has added actors,
  doctors, barbers, daycare workers, manufacturers
  of cosmetics .
• and it needs to expand its territory to satisfy
  everyones new requirements
• So we add a military force.

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The introduction of the military

• Glaucon asks whether the existing citizens could
  serve as the armed forces.
• Socrates reminds him that they have agreed it is
  impossible for one person to work properly at
  more than one area of expertise.
• They agree that military occupations require
  expertise, and a group of professional guardians
  is added.

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What are the guardians like?

• They are to be gentle to the members of the
  community brave and willing to fight the enemy

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What are the guardians like?

• They are to be gentle to the members of the
  community brave and willing to fight the enemy
• a bit like dogs who are kind to those familiar
  to them, and hostile to strangers.

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What are the guardians like?

• They are to be gentle to the members of the
  community brave and willing to fight the enemy
• a bit like dogs who are kind to those familiar
  to them, and hostile to strangers.
• or like philosophers (!)
• (why? What do you make of the argument at
  376b-d))

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Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians

• How does education begin?
• we start by telling children stories which are,
  by and large, untrue, although they contain
  elements of truth (377a)

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Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians

• What kind of stories are the future guardians to
  be told, as children?

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Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians

• What kind of stories are the future guardians to
  be told, as children?
• Why is censorship to be practiced?

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Censorship of stories in the ideal city

• Any spoken words or composed works will have to
  conform to the principle that God is not
  responsible for everything, but only for good.
  (380c)

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Censorship of stories in the ideal city

• Any spoken words or composed works will have to
  conform to the principle that God is not
  responsible for everything, but only for good.
  (380c)
• The point is that a young person cant tell when
  something is allegorical and when it isnt
  (378de)

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Censorship of stories in the ideal city

• Stories about the gods changing shape are to be
  banished
• And so are stories about the gods being engaged
  in deception

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A note about deception

• Look carefully at the explanation of a true
  falsehood (382a)
• How is a genuine lie different from a mere spoken
  lie? (382c)
• In what circumstances is a spoken lie acceptable?
  (Keep that in mind)

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More censorship

• No scary stories about the afterlife we dont
  get to talk about the vile, dank halls, which
  even the gods hate, the shrieking bats etc..
  (386e-387d)
• No stories in which leading men weep and wail in
  mourning (387d)
• (Why?)

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Lying in the ideal community

• The rulers can lie for the good of the
  community, when either an external or an internal
  threat makes it necessary (389b)
• No one else is allowed to lie

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More censorship

• No stories of heroes being overcome with desire,
  or lacking self-discipline
• Stories are not to portray immoral people as
  happy, or moral people as unhappy
• No stories about the rewards of secret
  immorality, or the disadvantages of being moral

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More censorship

• There is to be little playacting a guardian can
  tell a narrative, but he or she cant take on the
  role of a dishonourable character
• A great actor could visit our community and put
  on a show, but he cant stay and live among us
  (398ab) left to ourselves we would employ
  harsher and less entertaining poets and
  story-tellers

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More censorship

• Music is censored. Plaintive, sappy stuff is
  forbidden.
• Music should perfectly capture the tones of
  self-disciplined and courageous men in failure
  and success (399c)
• Note in the course of the discussion, they trim
  out some of the original luxuries they had
  imagined in the community (399e)

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More censorship

• We are also going to censor painting, weaving,
  embroidery, pottery, topiary, architecture
  everything must be elegant and harmonious
• We want a cultural education that will make young
  people graceful, and ready for rationality
  (401e-402a)