Engineering the Future of Civil Engineering

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Engineering the FutureofCivil Engineering
Raising the Bar through Education and Licensure
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Putting 10 pounds of stuff in a 5-pound bag.

• What's wrong with ASCE's new policy on
  engineering education, what's right about it, and
  what might we do about it?

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Todays Schedule

1. Review ASCE Revised Policy 465
2. How it came about whats good about it
3. Whats wrong with it
4. Perkins ideas

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ASCE Policy 465
ADOPTED OCTOBER 1998 The American Society of
Civil Engineers (ASCE) supports the concept of
the Masters degree as the First Professional
Degree for the practice of civil engineering at a
professional level.
ADOPTED OCTOBER 2001 The American Society of
Civil Engineers (ASCE) supports the concept of
the Masters degree or Equivalent as a
prerequisite for licensure and the practice of
civil engineering at a professional level.
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Non-Terminal Graduate Degree(for Holders of
ABET-Accredited BSCE)
30 semester credits of acceptable graduate level
course work beyond that required for the
baccalaureate degree
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HistoryIs This a New Issue?
Is it not time we should agree that a
professional man woman cannot be produced in
four years, but that an accredited civil
engineering training must be definitely post
graduate, with a broad undergraduate training as
a pre-requisite? Carlton S. Proctor, 1932 (ASCE
President 1952)
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ASCE EDUCATION CONFERENCES
1979
1985
1990
1974
1995
1960
Discussion of formal education
beyond baccalaureate degree
Image Compensation Public Health, Safety,
Welfare
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2. Motivations for Change
Compensation
Slippage
Reduction in Credits
Professional Skills Development
LeadershipPreparation
Broader Formal Education
Appeal To Youth
Changing Systems
Managementby Non-Engineers
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Slippage
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Once a Leader . . .
CE is a Profession with a 4-Year Degree
CE is a Learned Art
1800 1900
1816-25 Erie Canal is First Engineering School
Law 1- 3 years Medicine 1-4 years
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A Leader No Longer
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0
Medicine
Law
Architecture
Pharmacy
Accounting
Years of Formal Education
Occupational Therapy
Civil Engineering
Civil Engineering
1900
1920
1950
1980
2000
2010
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Reduction in Credit Hours
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Trend in Reduced Total Credit-Hours
150
140
Credits
130
120
1925
1950
1975
2000
Year
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Compensation
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Perceived ValueStarting GS Grades
Doctor
Dentist
Lawyer
Architect
Occupational Therapist
Pharmacist
Accountant
Optometrist
Civil Engineer
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Median GS Grades1967 1997
Medicine
15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8
15 14 13 12 11 10
Dentist
Lawyer
Civil Engr
Civil Engr
Median General Schedule Grade
Accountant
Pharmacy
Optometrist
O. T.
Nurse
1967
1997
Occupational Therapist
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Average Yearly Starting Salaries1990-2000 (NACE)
Curriculum 1990 2000 Change Change
Curriculum 1990 2000 Change in Increase
Civil Engineering 28,136 37,932 9,796 35
Accounting 26,391 36,710 10,319 39
Occupational Therapy 25,644 43,500 17,856 70
Pharmacy 36,728 64,717 27,989 76
National Association of Colleges Employers
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Leadership Preparation
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Management by Non-Engineers
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Management byNon-Engineers
State Secretaries of Departments of
Transportation
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Broader Formal Education
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From Mann, 1918

• But that, "engineering education needed
  curricular integration and a health dose of
  managerial and "'humanistic' courses" because
  "ultimately the engineer is " the creator of
  machines and the interpreter of their human
  significance."
• He thought it was great that some universities
  could put "administrative" (management) courses
  in their curriculum.

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• 1944, ASCE and predecessor of ASEE found
• "Civil engineering graduates of the previous
  decade were deficient in their ability to
  communicate orally and in writing and had little
  interest in public affairs?

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Appeal to Youth
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Declining Appeal to Youth
   
2000 Sample size 1000 high school students,
1174 college students
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Changing Systems
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ProfessionalSkillsDevelopment
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SUMMARYMotivations for Change
Compensation
Slippage
Reduction in Credits
Professional Skills Development
LeadershipPreparation
Broader Formal Education
Appeal To Youth
Changing Systems
Managementby Non-Engineers
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ASCE Policy 465(Adopted by the BOD on October 9,
2001)
The American Society of Civil Engineers supports
the concept of the Masters degree or Equivalent
as a prerequisite for licensure and the practice
of civil engineering at a professional level.
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Masters or Equivalent (MOE)

• PURPOSE Increase breadth depth of formal
  education
• FLEXIBILITY
• Choice of focus
• Choice of timing
• Choice of access
• QUALITY Maintain rigor

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Engineering MOEs(for Holders of ABET-Accredited
BSCE)

1. MEngr or MS in CIVIL ENGINEERING
2. MEngr or MS in OTHER ENGINEERING
3. PhD in CIVIL ENGINEERING
4. PhD in OTHER ENGINEERING

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PossibleNon-Engineering MOEs(for Holders of
ABET-Accredited BSCE)

1. MS in SCIENCE
2. MS in ARCHITECTURE
3. MS in CITY URBAN PLANNING
4. MASTER of BUSINESS ADMINISTRATIONMASTER OF
   PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION
5. PhD in SCIENCE

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The Board has established the -- Task
Committeeon the Academic Prerequisites for
Professional Practice (TCAP3)
4. Implementation
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4. Implementation
TCAP3 Committee
(practitioners, academics, younger members)

• Jeff Russell (Chair)
• Stu Walesh (Vice-Chair)
• Rich Anderson
• Norm Buehring
• Angela Duncan
• John Durrant

• Jon Esslinger
• Gerry Galloway
• Brook Maples
• Brian Parsons
• Bobby Price
• Tom Lenox

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When?

• Will not happen overnight.
• Will require cooperative effort.
• (Accountants have 20 year plan for 150 credits
  for CPA)

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Summary

• HISTORY we have been here before.
• MOTIVATIONS FOR CHANGE we need to move ahead.
• ASCE POLICY 465 we have more specificity.
• IMPLEMENTATION we, including a broad set of
  stakeholders, have a lot of important work ahead
  of us.

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End of ASCE Slides

• They made a good case.
• Whats wrong with it
• Perkins ideas

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Non-Terminal Graduate Degree(for Holders of
ABET-Accredited BSCE)
30 semester credits of acceptable graduate level
course work beyond that required for the
baccalaureate degree
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Right

• 120 credits is inadequate for the professional
  practice of CE.

Wrong

• Policy adds 30 credits to the 140 credit degree
  as well.
• Does not define what credits need be added.

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Lets look at those additional credits

• Practical matter of implementation

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Avoid Controversy
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Directions
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From UAF CEE Advisory Board
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(No Transcript)
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What the Board said
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(No Transcript)
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Needed Education
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But

• Even 138 credit BS
• Lacks sufficient technical courses
• For professional practice

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CE Sub-disciplines

• Structures
• Geotech
• Water

• Environmental
• Transportation
• Construction

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Extra Courses Required
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Extra Courses Required - Environmental

• Environmental 12 (already)
• Chemical, biological, and physical process (6-9)
• Water chemistry and treatment (3)
• Solid waste (3),
• Pollution control (3) and
• Laws (3)
• Total 15 21 more

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Extra Courses Required - Construction

• Cost estimating (3),
• CE constructions (3),
• Project management (3),
• Contract law (3),
• Human Resources, Labor Law (3) plus
• Geotech or structures (3-6).
• Total 15-18 more credits

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So we have
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Not 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag
How about 15 pounds of stuff in a 10 pound bag?
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Why change is hard?

• Always is.
• Need motivation for any change to happen.
• Lets look at motivation of interested parties.

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Motivation of Students

• Can get good job with current degree
• Full-time two-year MS does not pay
• Economics deceptive
• Based on 1999 NSPE salary survey

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(No Transcript)
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Full-time MS

• Two year MS paid 20K/year for two years, then
  starts at 43.7K, their third year post BS.
• BS for same times is paid, 38k, 41k, then 43.4k
  for their third year.
• Over 15 years post BS, the MS is about 8 worse
  off, NPV at i 8

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Part-time MS

• Get MS at night
• Economics depends completely on valuation of free
  time.
• At 20/hr, their rate of pay, it is not
  economical
• At 13/hr, it is same as BS.
• Must value your free time at less than 13/hr for
  MS at night to pay.

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Motivation of Employers

• Contrast with dentists
• Each new dentist is a direct economic threat to
  practicing dentists
• Pays to increase qualifications, raise the bar
• Most engineers are employees of other engineers
• Why create labor shortage
• If we train on the job, they are ours

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Motivation of University

• University does not recognize engineering as a
  learned profession
• Does not consider engineering college or school
  to be a professional school different than
  Anthropology Department.

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Motivation of Engineering Faculty

• Most have never had significant engineering
  employment outside of academia
• No rewards for teaching or professional service
  by faculty
• Some by administration, not faculty
• Faculty rewards are for research and publication
• Professional employment, i.e., summers or
  consulting, is held in contempt

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Motivation of Engineering Faculty, cont.

• No desire to expand enrollments beyond minimum
• Generally lack resources to teach what is
  required now
• Increasing offering frequency would require more
  resources.

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Motivation of Administrators

• Would like to see enrollments increase
• But,
• First to increase requirements will loose
  students to departments/colleges/states that have
  lower requirements.
• CPAs proved this.

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Motivation of Professional Societies

• Would like to see prestige of profession
  increased
• But are convinced that their education was
  adequate
• When I was an new engineer
• Firms will consider competitive position

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AELS Board

• Can get PE with no engineering degree now.
• ABET accredited B.S. degree in engineering
  technology
• Non-ABET accredited B.S. degree in engineering
• Course work in ABET accredited engineering degree
  curriculum - no degree (course work must include
  a minimum of three years of credit hours in an
  engineering curriculum (Huh?)

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And more

• ABET
• Stopped separate accreditation of five-year
  degrees long ago
• ABET 2000 is moving in different direction
• NCEES
• Will sell as many exams either way.

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Lack of Motivation

• Students
• Employers
• Universities
• License Boards
• Societies

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Nobody said this would be easy, or
non-controversial
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For new degree requirements to ever happen

• Must define what we want , and
• What the public health and safety require.
• Must have system so that students get higher
  starting salaries
• Students must be worth more to employers
• Profession must demand

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Heres something that might work
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Higher Math

• CE at UAF currently requires 135 credits
• Typical liberal arts graduate, 120 credits in
  four years. 150 for masters
• So we are half way to a masters already.
• Add the 5 to 7 more courses and we are over 150
  credits.
• 5 courses is one semester.

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So, both

• Requirements for discipline-specific courses, and
• University credits for MS can be met in one extra
  semester.

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Add value

• Add 2 summer internship courses
• list of topics
• discussion and
• industry advisor

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See NCARB IDP

• National Council of Architectural Registration
  Boards
• Intern Development Program

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For 3-credits

• Meet in fall
• present data
• interact with other student
• fill in gaps.

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Make all design courses into 600-level graduate
courses

• Stack all 400-level design courses,
• CE 425/625
• Add professional content
• Stacked course would add material on
  communications, human element, public reaction,
  etc.
• May not directly relate to course content
• 5 to 10 hours, max.

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Professional

• Require they pass the Civil EIT and
• Take the PE
• must pass for professional degree
• Several state permit taking the PE immediately
  after graduation from a four-year degree
• (Note, this is very different than getting the
  license, for which you still need the 3 or 4
  years of experience.)

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Academic Deal

• Leave current four-year degree on books, just
  as it is.
• Add a 120-credit non-ABET degree, perhaps, BS in
  engineering science.
• Student opting for the MS will get the 120-credit
  degree in passing.
• That starts the clock on the MS, admission to
  graduate standing.
• The counting of the 30 post-BS credits.

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• Probably want 36 credits, post-BS
• for 156 total.

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Increased Value

• Student get masters in 5 months, so economics
  changes,
• with only MS differential
• probably favorable
• With summer jobs, increase starting salaries 5
  or more
• Likewise having passed the PE exam
• Current 4 year students take 4.5 years
• Typical 4.5 years will take 5

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Whats in the future?