Preliminary findings in Denmark Presented at the UPGEM midterm seminar

1

• Preliminary findings in Denmark Presented at the
  UPGEM midterm seminar
• TOPICS FOR STAYERS
• Career path - getting into physics
• Family - double star children
• Mobility - going abroad
• Gender differences - Female visibility career
  path stereotype
• GENDER DISTRIBUTION
• STAYERS
• Males 8
• Females 11

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• The Danish data support the hypothesis regarding
  family member as the majority say that having a
  (close) member in the family who is/was a
  physicist has had an impact on
• A) Their initial interest in physics
• B) Choosing physics as their career
• ST What made you choose math and physics? Were
  there any specific persons in your family or-
• P67 Many women besides me have families, my
  father is a physicist and a majority of the women
  in here have a connection to physics that way
  around.
• P67 We have talked much of physics, but I did
  not know exactly what my father was doing. It is
  another area than the one I am working in now.
  More prominently, the fact that it was a
  possibility to be a physicist. I doubt that I
  would have considered that at all in different
  circumstances. I would have been an engineer or
  something like that otherwise.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• One female offers an interesting perspective on
  the issue of having
• Physicist family members having a father who is
  a physicist does not only
• facilitating an interest, but is a strategic and
  necessary move for a woman
• if she wants to make a career in physics
• MH Was your father a physicist too?
• P76 No, and that was one of the strategic things
  I lacked, it would have been
• better if my father had been a physicist than a
  well renowned scientist within a
• different field.
• MH Was he employed at university?
• P76 No he is a physician. If the world of
  physics had known my father to be an
• accomplished physicist who was good at what he
  did then I - that is one of the
• ways for women to gain access.
• MH You have witnessed this with your colleagues?
• P76 I think it has happened this way in several
  instances where a woman joins a
• male dominated field. If you want to become the
  Governor of the National Central
• Bank it helps a lot if your father is an
  economist. I think she has done really well
• but she has had this little advantage that her
  father was respected within this field.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• MH Does that give her an extra strength or does
  it do that she is
• noticed?
• P76 She is noticed. I experienced it with my
  sister who was respected for
• what she did and our last name is quite common,
  so she experienced being
• introduced to our father well this is our new
  employee, she is a physician too
• and had not wished to make use of her family
  connection with our father and
• thereby his credibility, and this caused her
  surroundings to look at her
• differently okay, you are a member of that
  family. I think this has something
• to say for men too, it is just even more
  important for women to have this too
• because we need all facets we need the right
  methods, we need it all, and
• with the elimination mechanism at work you need
  them all if you dont want to
• be left out.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE STAYERS)

• Apparently, the male physicists have generally
  not been inspired to study physics through their
  near family as none of them have parents or other
  close family members who are physicists.
• Generally, the men confirm being supported by
  their family even though some mention that
  their family did not understand their choice of
  career. A few mention that they are the first
  academics in the family. This situation is less
  apparent among the females so far.
• MH Were there any members of your family who
  were physicists?
• P52 No.
• P68 I am not out of a family of academics. My
  father is trained as a carpenter and my mother is
  trained as an accountant. I was the first in my
  family to get a secondary school diploma.
• P83 My father has a PhD in mechanical
  engineering and I frankly always thought when I
  was a child that his work was kind of boring. So
  it was, I suppose, partly I did have it in my
  family, but I was really fascinated by nature and
  by astronomy, by the stars.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• Statements on inspiration outside the family are
  not entirely uniform among the FEMALE STAYERS.
  Some mention explicitly having found much
  motivation in very good high school and
  university teachers, while others state the
  opposite.
• P67 I entered into this system in Germany, they
  had this elitist system. The teachers had the
  opportunity to recommend someone for some courses
  those were offered in a larger city the size of
  Copenhagen where I lived. I liked chemistry and
  my teacher. I had a competent physics teacher.
  That was a woman who had done some research and a
  PhD, and when she had children she chose - or I
  do not know whether that was a choice - but chose
  to be a high school teacher. I was like, okay
  well I might not succeed in this field.
• AN did you have an inspiring teacher?
• P51 Well no _. No, not really _.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• P70 comments on the role of competent teachers in
  high school
• P70 I think that when we say we can see that
  students come to our
• course from a certain secondary school, they come
  from the schools
• where the good teachers work those that enjoy
  teaching the subject and
• are able to motivate their students and keep up
  with what's happening in
• the field. There is also a clear connection-.
  There is the Kopernikus course
• for second year students at secondary schools.
  Again, it's specific secondary
• school students who come for that. An
  investigation was made at some point
• about it, and it found a clear connection between
  the teachers and the students
• who participated in this supplementary training
  its the active and interested
• physics teachers.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• When the FEMALE STAYERS talk of what, apart from
  their family background, has motivated their
  study in physics and more prominently from where
  they believe their interest in the field stems,
  they often answer that it is fun or that they
  found it very interesting. Some of them also
  mention that they were good at it, they got good
  grades in maths and physics in high school.
• P70 Well, really it was because I had seen a
  lecture list brought home by her father, where
  I could see that you could study glaciology and
  that you would have to get out in the field. I
  was good at mathematics and physics and also got
  good grades in those topics at the upper
  secondary school And in the lecture list it
  said that you would have to go out in the field,
  and I thought 'fantastic'. That was really
  something for me. Nature experiences to combine
  nature with physics and mathematics. It really
  was a realization of geophysics being just
  something for me. Where I could work with nature
  and with the subjects I was really good at.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE STAYERS)

• Contrary to the females, MALE STAYERS rarely
  mention a primary or high school teacher as the
  main source of inspiration to the interest in
  physics. On the contrary, some mention an
  incompetent high school teacher as the driving
  force.
• AN Did you have any inspiring teachers?
• P50 No.
• AN There have not been any persons involved in
  this?
• P50 No. No not my teachers in physics in high
  school no. I would not say that. You could not
  call it that laughing. The first, in the first
  year was a completely deluded psychopath, and my
  other one in the second year was okay, but he was
  not really an inspiring person. So no it was not
  like that laughing.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE STAYERS)

• MH Why did you choose to study these subjects to
  begin with and then to
• focus on physics?
• P52 It is quite funny, but it was because I had
  an incompetent physics teacher in
• high school. I thought I might do better
  laughing but let me put it this way it was
• Also because I knew the subjects beforehand. And
  I found it very interesting and
• that was where I got it, from the sixth grade.
• P68 Well, particle physics was something I took
  an interest in of my own accord
• going back to secondary and primary school. I
  cant really trace it back to any of
• my physics teachers. My primary school teacher
  certainly wasnt very interesting.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE STAYERS)

• The MALE STAYERS mention their great interest and
  curiosity in understanding how the world works as
  the typical source of inspiration to study
  physics. This curiosity and love for physics is
  also the decisive factor when they decided to
  embark on an degree in physics.
• MH Yes. And this interest began early on and
  then grew with time?
• P52 Yes. Those of us who are inveterate
  physicists, we think that everything is physics.
  There is physics behind everything in the real
  world.
• AN Can you think of what inspired you in your
  youth to study physics?
• P50 That was astrophysics. It was something
  about those black holes. I found that exciting
  reading in high school.
• AN Was it on a serious level or more like a
  science fiction level?
• P50 I do not know. It probably was - well I did
  read some journals, it was a bit like I wanted
  to know about how it worked. So it was seriously
  and because I was curious.

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CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE STAYERS)

• P68 What caught my interest was the sense of
  going underneath the surface and
• laying bare the underlying mechanisms of
  everything. As a boy I had no trouble
• taking a part a clock to see how it worked and
  then putting it back together, with a
• couple of parts left that is, but that has always
  excited me. I have always read a lot
• about it.
• P83 I do not recall this as being something that
  I was particularly encouraged to
• do. This was something that came from within. And
  the stuff I ended up looking at, I
• would say at age ten to 15 was far, I would not
  say beyond, but it was - I had really
• gone many steps beyond the point where my parents
  are pointing things out to me.
• I was studying things on my own. For my own sake,
  and not because my parents
• were encouraging this in any way. I was really
  fascinated by theses things. And a
• lot of the things with nature, my parents did not
  really have an interest in.

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Family Double star (FEMALE STAYERS)

• Of 11 FEMALE STAYERS 3 are not in a double star
  relationship.
• The remaining 8 are in a double star relationship
  (2 married, 6 in
• relationship). 2 of these are married to leavers.
  
• MH So it was the contact to the institution in
  Eucalyptus and not to the
• people in Eucalyptus who made you go back to
  Eucalyptus or what made
• you go back there?
• P60 Well it was because I have a boyfriend in
  the theoretical department in
• Eucalyptus, but hes not there anymore, so he
  established the contact with him.
• The professor who has come to Eucalyptus was
  looking for teachers and it starts
• in October. So he asked my boyfriend to teach,
  but he did not want to. But he her
• boyfriend got the idea to do a little promotion
  for me and created the contact with
• the professor for me.

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Family Double star (FEMALE STAYERS)

• P62 What made me look after other places before
  was the pressure from the
• home front. I felt pressured into applying for
  another job that would fit better to a
• family life than a research position did.
• MH And when you say the home front, do you mean
  you husband or boyfriend?
• P62 Yes, my boyfriend. Hes divorced and has a
  son from a previous
• relationship. And hes also a researcher. And
  its pressed to have a family life if
• both of you are researchers. And he didnt give
  it a try - he felt it would be too
• hard.
• MH But hes in a permanent position himself?
• P62 Yes. Therefore Ive strongly considered
  trying something else or if I wanted
• to do something else. And Ive applied to some
  other positions which were very
• interesting but after I applied to them I felt
  that- I didnt want to have them. So in
• the end I had to recognise that it wasnt
  meaningful. It was a bit foolish. Because I
• think I could get another job where I would be
  just as happy and where I would
• look back and think - It was so great that I got
  this job instead of doing research
• but then if you have the feeling that you are
  giving up the wrong things or what it
• might be called then it wouldnt work. So now
  Ive given up that thought and Im
• here now.

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Family Double star (MALE STAYERS)

• 6 of the 8 male stayers are not in double star
  relationship
• Most of the men express awareness of including
  their wives career in their own career paths
  e.g. going abroad must suit the wife and
  children. In that respect the data indicates a
  generational change
• P52 But when you look back, things have
  developed the way they have, and I have been
  lucky to have a wife whose priorities were the
  house and the children. Who chose to work part
  time. And who has put up with this. That I was
  not that much at home at times.

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Family Children (FEMALE STAYERS)

• Interviewees who do NOT have children P51, P53,
  P56, P60, P61, P64, P69. The high number of
  female stayers without children may be influence
  by the relatively young age of these women.
• MH Do you have any children?
• P60 No, that would be very hard when you have to
  move every two year. You
• cannot have children and then move so much around
  because of your education.
• MH Have you talked about having children or not
  having children?
• P60 No, because its not really clear how our
  future will look like. Where we
• are in one or two years or what is going to
  happen.
• MH Do you want to have children at some point?
• P60 Im not sure of that. I wouldnt sacrifice
  everything to have children. But if
• I could get a permanent position it would be the
  start.

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Family Children (FEMALE STAYERS)

• P64 It is clear that you think about how you are
  going to include children in all of this. My
  boyfriend and I both want children. That cannot
  be discussed. But the time this past year has
  been rather special because my boyfriend has
  written his PhD and has to defend it soon, and
  before it was my turn. When I look at our
  everyday life, it is difficult for me to imagine
  where there is room for any children. And these
  are some of the considerations I have about
  research. If I am going to stay in research, will
  I have any time left to have children? Those are
  the things I consider and whether I should choose
  some other path.

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Family Children (FEMALE STAYERS)

• Females who do have children
• P54 (1 child), P62 (1 stepson), P67 (3 children),
  P70 (4 children)
• Contrary to the women without children, the women
  who do have children
• do generally not find it problematic to combine
  work life and family life.
• A number of these women are employed in
  departments that aim at being
• family friendly, by e.g. not planning afternoon
  meetings.
• P70 Many in the group have many children and
  they prioritize the care of their
• family very highly. I have always picked my
  children up at four o'clock. Always.
• For that reason we never schedule meetings late
  in the day. I think X former
• group leader did the same he also picked up his
  children and things like that.
• And if there is a child sick that is never a
  problem and we help each other take
• care of classes and what not. I think we have
  very child friendly politics here. But
• it is something we disapprove of at the rest of X
  the institute, because they
• schedule their meetings late and things like
  that. Personally I think that to be a
• woman on this workplace is great because theres
  basically full flexibility of your
• work hours.

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Family Children (FEMALE STAYERS)

• P67 I went to Y abroad for three months and
  then I went home and finished it at
• home. And I had not done a lot of field work, I
  did not do any field work at all in
• this period of time because I had a child etc.
  When my husband finished his PhD,
• he got a post doc grant and we decided that he
  should do a year in Y so
• that I could go down and finish my PhD while he
  did his post doc down there. We
• spend a year in Y in 97 98. And I got my PhD
  degree in April 98. And we
• got home in time for my second child birth in
  July 98. After my maternity leave
• the second time, I got six months of employment
  at a project here in DK. Then I
• did 6 months on another project. It was nice to
  get a salary but other than that it
• was a bit chaotic.
• Females, more than males, describe the balance of
  work life and family
• responsibility (especially bringing and picking
  up children) as a
• organizational maze.

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Family Children (MALE STAYERS)

• MALES who do NOT have children 2 males have no
  children
• Males who do have children
• 2 males 4 children
• 2 males 3 children
• 1 male 2 children
• 1 male 1 child
• The fact that more MALE STAYERS than FEMALE
  STAYERS have children may partly due to a
  difference in age between the two groups of
  interviewees.

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Family Children (MALE STAYERS)

• Most of the MALE STAYERS mention that it could be
  problematic to go abroad for a longer period of
  time after they have had children, because they
  would want to bring their family or because they
  do not want to be away from their children/wife.
  Nonetheless, a number of the MALES describe the
  aspect of having and taking their children with
  them abroad in very positive phrases.
• P68 since 1987 and up until the late 1990s,
  we have organised it so that I have been in A
  abroad in X country for eight weeks, and when I
  returned, my wife would go to B also in X
  country to work as a field representative. Then
  she would apply to go to X. She would drop off
  the children with me in B, and then she would go
  in the field. And in the meantime, I would set up
  family and kids in B. So we have had the whole
  family together every year. In that way, we think
  of ourselves as a traditional family of farmers
  the children are brought along to wherever the
  work is to be done. The living conditions are
  quite basic even when we were travelling with
  four children, we only had two rooms of about 14
  square meters. And we would live in those rooms
  for about three months during the summer there
  was no privacy because people are moving in and
  out of the projects all the time. It has worked
  out nicely.

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Family Children (MALE STAYERS)

• None of the men seem to think that having
  children is incompatible with being a physics
  researcher (as some of the females did).
• P52 I sense that our PhD students more have the
  attitude to work from nine to five than we did in
  my youth. But they are grown people and several
  are married and have children. And the fathers
  take care of their children. They have to go
  fetch their children and-
• MH Does that have any positive or negative
  influence on the subject?
• P52 I do not think it matters all that much,
  because you say that young mothers are the most
  well organised people in the world. Because there
  is this obligation with the children, and that
  means that you concentrate more during that time
  you have, while you are at work. It makes things
  more cosy and relaxed if nobody needs to hurry. I
  can see that some of them are very concentrated
  on their work. So they probably get a lot done.

23
Family Children (MALE STAYERS)

• Continued
• MH You have noticed this in the young women or
  does that also apply to the young men?
• P52 That also goes for the young men. At least
  those who are fathers. When I think about the
  people sitting in the next room the two people
  who are not married or do not have a family they
  are here longer into the afternoon. They are
  mostly still here when I go home. And get here
  earlier also.
• MH You do not think that there is a difference
  in their results?
• P52 No.
• One male stayer mentions a male student who felt
  he had to leave physics in order to be able to
  provide for his children. Apart from this
  comment, none of the MALE STAYERS know of anyone
  who they are sure has left because of children.
• Another male stayer believes some men choose not
  to have children because family life is not
  easily compatible with being an ambitious
  physicist.

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Mobility Going abroad (FEMALE STAYERS)

• The material offers examples of some FEMALE
  STAYERS who are happy to go abroad (also after
  they have had children) and others who find it
  problematic.
• However, the stage of the relationship seem to
  affect the attitude toward travelling when being
  in a young relationship/no children it is clearly
  less troublesome to go abroad.

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Mobility Going abroad (MALE STAYERS)

• There are some examples of a generational change
  in terms of going abroad and having a family.
• MH Good. This carrier path, do you think it had
  progressed any differently if you were a woman?
• P52 Well laughing I cannot really imagine. It
  seems clear that the stays abroad, has to fit
  your family life, if you have a family. And at
  that time when you are young this would have
  been a problem. As a woman, I would guess.
• MH From what reasons?
• P52 Well, you probably cannot really imagine. 40
  years ago it was still the man who was in
  authority. It was less conceivable that a woman
  went abroad and that the man took leave from his
  work in order to go along, cook, and look after
  the children.
• MH And this year, your wife did not do that
  this.P52 Yes.

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Mobility Going abroad (MALE STAYERS)

• MALE STAYERS often say it would be problematic to
  go abroad for a longer period (a year) after they
  have had children. Find it possible to go abroad
  for short periods (a couple of weeks).
• There seems to be a difference in terms of field.
  Disciplines with extensive field work are more
  positive toward travelling. This applies to both
  MALES and FEMALES.
• The MALE STAYERS have all brought their children
  with them when they had to work abroad, and often
  the wife has not been working or has been on
  maternity leave in that period.

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Gender DifferencesFemale Visibility (STAYER)

• In terms of being visible as a woman, some women
  talk about noticing an attention toward the
  gender when you are a woman because the work
  environment is very male dominated.
• P51 what I find hard is _ when you travel to _
  to conferences and-. What becomes difficult is
  actually eh _ _ that you sort of get seen.
• AN As a woman?
• P51 Yes. I mean, you get _ it is like you have a
  flashlight in your forehead laughs.

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Gender DifferencesCareer path (STAYER)

• MH If you look back at your career again, would
  it have looked different if
• you were a woman?
• P57 If I had been a woman? That depends on what
  kind of woman I was. If I was
• the same person as I am now, but a woman, there
  would not be any difference. I
• would prioritize the same things.
• MH What do you mean when you say priorities?
• P57 I mean that it takes a lot of stubbornness,
  interest and will to make it. And I
• think these are the most important factors. And
  these are without sex reference.
• You can ask women if they think the same. But I
  do not think there is anything in
• the system which favours the one or the other.
  Well then women should be the
• ones being favoured, I think so.
• MH In what way are they favoured?
• P57 You still hope to see more women in jobs
  and therefore if you are in doubt
• you always chose the women. We even have rules
  about it. If there are two
• applicants to one job and the first priority is a
  man and the second a woman, they
• will both be hired.
• MH You then hire both of them, that there are
  made an extra job position?

29
Gender DifferencesCareer path (STAYER)

• P57 Yes.
• MH The man will not suffer?
• P57 No, one can say that. That man will not
  suffer, but the next one will.
• Because then there are no next job. That is an
  expression of positive favouring.
• But I do not think there are any differences.

30
Gender DifferencesCareer path (STAYERS)

• P69 There are some advantages for women. In the
  sense that if you have two
• equal candidates and one of them is a man and the
  other one is a woman you
• are compelled to take on the woman. And if the
  next best is a woman then you
• have to employ her as well, something like that
  anyway. They have to change
• that at some point.
• ABZ How do you feel about that?
• P69 I do not rightly know. I think it is tricky.
  On the one hand you do not want to
• treat people unfairly, and on the other hand,
  women who do not have children,
• they are more or less equal with their male
  counterparts. There is no problem
• there. But for those who have children they will
  continue to get out fewer
• publications because they are on maternity leave
  and so on and so forth. In that
• way they have a weaker position compared to men
  when they apply for jobs. It is
• a bit tricky and it is hard to say. On the one
  hand you should not reject a better
• candidate to give women a better deal, but on the
  other hand, if you want to keep
• women in physics, you have to consider the fact
  that there are some
• physiological reasons that they cannot always
  join in. I do not know. I do not want
• to have an opinion on the subject.

31
Overview

• TOPICS FOR LEAVERS
• Career path - getting into physics
• Family - double star children
• Leaving physics - reasons for leaving
  reflections
• Gender differences - Female visibility career
  path stereotype
• GENDER DISTRIBUTION
• LEAVERS
• Males 7
• Females 12

32
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• Like the FEMALE STAYERS, the majority of the
  FEMALE LEAVERS point to support from the family
  when asked why they chose to study and do career
  in physics. They feel it has facilitated their
  studies and interest in the field.
• MH Yes. So why did you choose to study physics?
  Why was it physics?
• P63 That was probably - a large part of it -
  partly because physics felt natural, because my
  dad is a physicist, so it - I am sure that it
  comes in there that I have heard some things, and
  had that experience, I knew - as a child I had
  been to Christmas parties at the department,
  where I now bring my own children, so I have been
  brought up with the idea that you can do that
  laughing I have received a lot of support
  from home, my dad has always supported me and
  said of course you can do it, and you should
  just continue and try, and that helped a lot the
  first few years I was studying.

33
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• One female offers an interesting perspective on
  the issue of having
• physicist family members having a father who is
  a physicist does not only
• facilitating an interest, but is referred to as a
  strategic and necessary
• move for a woman if she wants to make a career in
  physics
• MH Was your father a physicist too?
• P76 No, and that was one of the strategic things
  I lacked, it would have been
• better if my father had been a physicist than a
  well renowned scientist within a
• different field If the world of physics had
  known my father to be an
• accomplished physicist who was good at what he
  did then I - that is one of the
• ways for women to gain access.
• MH You have witnessed this with your colleagues?
• P76 I think it has happened this way in several
  instances where a woman joins a
• male dominated field

34
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE STAYERS)

• Continued
• P76 I think this has something to say for men
  too, it is just
• even more important for women to have this too
  because we need all facets
• we need the right methods, we need it all, and
  with the elimination
• mechanism at work you need them all if you dont
  want to be left out.

35
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• The FEMALE LEAVERS often mention a good school
  teacher as a
• source of inspiration, but also that a bad
  teacher can turn them off
• physics.
• P73 My primary school physics teacher was
  terribly boring. I did not like
• physics at all, and I thought chemistry was most
  unpleasant. And yes, I
• ended up studying physics and chemistry. I was
  terrified of physics just like
• all the other girls in my class. But I had some
  notion that it was wiser to
• choose the science branch. It included maths, and
  I actually liked maths
• Right, well I attended secondary school, and I
  had a brilliant physics
• teacher. And that made me interested in physics.
  Before secondary school, I
• had not had any particular interest in physics.
  So she inspired me to study
• physics. And I started university right after
  graduating from secondary school.
• Moreover, like the FEMALE STAYERS the FEMALE
  LEAVERS tend
• to note that they did well, i.e. got good grades,
  in physics in school.

36
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• Also at the level of university does a good
  (approachable/friendly)
• tutor seem to be important for females succeeding
  in their studies.
• P66 I was impressed because there was a lecturer
  whom I had not had. I
• was going to have him after Christmas. I remember
  we were celebrating a
• birthday in the assembly hall, and he sits down
  and he knows all our names
• by heart. It was great. I think he saved me.
  Otherwise I would never
• have passed. I was so impressed!

37
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• Along the lines of the FEMALE STAYERS, the
  LEAVERS also explain
• that they chose physics because they really like
  it.
• However, more FEMALE LEAVERS than STAYERS express
  more
• pragmatic in their approach to the study and
  choice of career.
• P71 I really like physics. I also like
  mathematics, but I like physics because you
• can do some actual physical things. Have some
  things in your hand and do
• something, do some experiments and practise-. I
  researched what possibilities I
• had if I wanted to do something with physics and
  mathematics. And then there
• was geophysics, which is, I don't suppose you
  could call it soft physics because it
• isn't, but more practical physics perhaps.
  Practical and useful physics. And then I
• had to see what it was there were more
  possibilities afterwards.

38
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE LEAVERS)

• The issue of poor teachers, both in high school
  and university, is repeating itself in the
  interviews with the MALE LEAVERS.
• MH Have you ever been in doubt if it was physics
  you wanted to study.
• P58 No never. If people asked me what I wanted
  to study after high school I always answered that
  I wanted to study physics.
• MH And you also started right away after high
  school?
• P58 Yes straight away. And thats despite I had
  a very bad physics teacher in high school but
  couldnt even scare me.
• P74 I had a teacher, S. he was called, who-. No
  lets go back even further. I had two physics
  teachers in secondary school one was an idiot,
  and the other one was very inspiring.
• Yet, in some cases, as in P74, competent teachers
  are also mentioned as an encouraging source of
  inspiration.

39
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE LEAVERS)

• Influence of tutor at university.
• Again the data indicate a drive among the men to
  succeed, even
• though they have poor teachers
• P74 Well, it especially had to do with one
  specific teacher who was teaching a very
  important subject. And I simply could not
  understand what he was saying, and I didnt
  understand the textbook. So I went through that
  course completely blindfolded. I had no idea what
  I was doing. Fortunately, another teacher had
  taken over the subject when I recommenced my
  studies there. And suddenly the course was a
  piece of cake. He had chosen a new textbook for
  the subject, and that is one of the only
  textbooks from my studies in physics that I have
  actually kept. Simply because its just a good
  read, something you can use for bedtime reading.
• I then ended up with the same hopeless teacher in
  another subject with yet another hopeless
  textbook, but I then chose to go out and get a
  textbook for that subject written by the author
  of that other good textbook. So I worked it out
  in that way. And it was not just me. My entire
  study group went out and got the other book.

40
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE LEAVERS)

• Contrary to the FEMALES but similar to the MALE
  STAYERS, the MALE LEAVERS have generally not
  found their inspiration within the family.
• MH Are there any in your family who are
  physicists?
• P58 No, both my parents are students in language
  from high school. And they have no idea about
  what physics is so Ive never been motivated by
  them to study physics and Ive never gotten any
  special help to do physics. But they have always
  supported me in something I had a gift for which
  is physics and math, but they havent affected me
  in that way.
• LD Do you have anybody in your family or other
  personal acquaintances who inspired you to become
  a physicist?
• P79 No. I actually broke away from my social
  heritage because there is nobody at all in my
  family that has any kind of long education. So it
  was for other reasons
• LD Has your family supported you in your career?
• P79 I do not think so, I do not think they have
  supported me. In my family they work with more
  craftsman-like things, and they have never really
  been involved in my career because it is so far
  from that they are doing.

41
CAREER PATHGetting into physics (MALE LEAVERS)

• The statements from the MALE LEAVERS resemble
  those of the MALE
• STAYERS with respect to the nearly intrinsic
  interest in physics.
• LD What do you think tricked your interest for
  physics?
• P81 I have always been an inventor. At my 14th
  birthday, my dad wrote a song
• about how I would end up with a tele-microscope,
  or something like that. my
• grandmothers husband was very much a
  do-it-yourself inventor-type kind of guy
• and he raised my brother and I with that kind of
  things. We played a lot and
• we were always able to get wooden boards and
  other things from him. That
• means that I have experimented a lot with
  explosives and what not as a kid, and
• it is not an insignificant number of ant hills
  that I have blown up with pipe bombs.
• We converted motors from mopeds into small
  go-carts, using boards and
• something like that. Did a lot of that kind of
  things!
• LD Did anyone in your family inspire you to
  study physics?
• P84 Not really no. I have just always found it
  interesting, so I went and did it.
• LD Did any other persons inspire you?
• P84 No. I just thought it was exciting. I was
  interested in everything. I wanted to
• know how things were connected.

42
Family Double star (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• Of 12 FEMALE LEAVERS, 7 are NOT in a double star
  relationship (1
• unknown)
• P71 No, my husband is not a physicist
• ST Is that atypical?
• P71 I don't know. Often people within physics
  have an academically trained
• husband too.
• ST A husband from the academic world, or from
  within physics too?
• P71 No, mostly just an academic, where they
  both have higher educations.
• Of the 4 FEMALE LEAVERS who are in a double star
  relationship, 3
• are married to a MALE LEAVER.
• P85 I applied for post docs, but it was just as
  much because my husband was
• encouraged to do so, and then we had to find out
  what we wanted. Because if he
• was doing post doc, I was going to as well. What
  would I be doing otherwise?

43
Family Double star (MALE LEAVERS)

• Similar to the FEMALE LEAVERS, the majority of
  the MALE LEAVERS are not in a double star
  relationship.
• In fact, of the 7 Male Leavers only 1 is married
  to a physicist and is therefore in a double star
  relationship

44
Family Children (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• The majority of the FEMALE LEAVERS have children
  typically two children
• On the topic of working hours and children, P75
  explains that the core of the problem is picking
  up children. Because children must be picked up
  at 4 pm, it puts a limit to the hours one can be
  at the work place the extent to which one can
  participate in meetings.
• P66 also mentions the aspect of not picking up
  too late as one of the more problematic aspect of
  balancing work life and family responsibility.
• The women tend to express more bad consciousness
  when talking about the balance of work and family
  life than do the men.

45
Family Children (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• Yet, Neither among the male nor the female
  physicist does having children seem to be thought
  of as an obvious reason for abandoning a career
  as researcher in physics. In fact, one woman sees
  it as bringing forth a positive personality
  trait
• P63 some of those two who are still there, who
  already had children back then, who are now 10
  years older than mine but - they were a little
  more relaxed, they were a little more - maybe
  because things do not always happen right here
  and right now when you have children, it is as if
  they seemed a little more relaxed, yes. Not as
  inhumanly focused on research as the ones who did
  not have children, they could spend 60 hours a
  week on it, while those who had children could
  simply not spend 60 hours a week on it, so they
  became more like normal people in my eyes.

46
Family Children (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• A number of the FEMALES express relief that
  travelling is no longer a
• compulsory part of their job
• MH How about travelling, do your travel with
  your job?
• P63 No, luckily not, because I prefer not to,
  with children and all.
• MH What is the difference for the children with
  the position you
• have here at Cherry compared to if you had stayed
  in research at
• the PLANE or the university?
• P66 I travel considerably less here than I did
  at the PLANE. So that is an
• advantage.

47
Family Children (MALE LEAVERS)

• As in the case of the FEMALE LEAVERS, the
  majority of the MALE LEAVERS have children
  generally not more than 2.
• There seems to be a great awareness among the
  MALE LEAVERS of creating a stable home for their
  children.
• P58 At some point I would like to start
  something for me only, that would be the optimal
  thing I have a little entrepreneur hidden in my
  stomach. And combined that with a little
  astronomy with one sort or the other it would be
  great. But now Ill keep on teaching at the high
  school for a couple of years yet because its a
  good job and my children are young. I have about
  11 weeks vacation.

48
Family Children (MALE LEAVERS)

• P86 Yes, and then we had children-. Children
  makes a huge difference _ all of a sudden things
  have to be ordered in fixed frames _ where you
  cant just decide to run off for six months to a
  foreign country _ or something else. _
• For that reason several of the MALES mention that
  they would have been sad to travel a lot and go
  abroad for longer periods of time after they have
  had children.
• When asked whether they would sacrifice job for
  their family all say yes, or say that they hope
  they would. This also applies to the MALE STAYERS.

49
Family Children (MALE LEAVERS)

• Paternity leave
• P58 while I wrote my PhD I got a child who now
  lives in AA. At that time, I lived in AA with the
  childs mother for about a year after he was
  born. And then I took half a year leave, a so
  called paternity leave It was a bit unorthodox
  in the researcher world that you take a half
  years leave. It was hard enough when you did
  that as a woman.
• MH Was that because one was afraid to be
  humiliated?
• P58 Well there werent that many who did it. I
  think I only knew a few who did it. But my
  girlfriend from back then had just started with
  her studies. So we decided to it like that. And
  it went well because I had just started my PhD
  studies. I had this image of me being able to
  take care of my boy with left arm and write a
  couple or articles with right arm. But pretty
  quickly you find out that that is a fulltime job.

50
Family MobilityGoing abroad (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• MOBILITY
• P59 There were a lot of things where I came from
  that was not really that appealing. And the fact
  that the prospects of getting those positions
  were very bad. And normally, if you get a
  permanent position at the faculty of science, and
  at physics especially, you have to have worked
  abroad. Or have had an extremely close
  cooperation with groups from abroad. But
  preferably, you should have been abroad for a
  longer period of time. But I had not at that
  time, and there were no immediate prospects of me
  doing so, because you cannot just pull a man away
  when he had his own company. And then I got
  pregnant. By the way, it was not the intent that
  it was to happen that soon. It could have been
  timed better. But that was one of the issues.

51
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• IDENTITY
• 4 of the FEMALE LEAVERS have left because they
  could not see themselves as full time
  researchers.
• P59 When I finished my PhD I had actually
  decided that I did not want to continue within
  research. Then I applied for many positions.
  Really a lot. I applied for everything there was.
  And my project manager out there, he did not
  attend my speech at the end, because he was doing
  performance reviews, because they were doing a
  round of dismissals. It was a really bad time to
  finish. There were a lot of people who got fired.
  So I did not get anything when I applied, and at
  last when I had the third interview for a
  position that was really very interesting, I
  found out that I was pregnant. So from around
  March, I applied all through spring and the
  beginning of the summer, and I did not get
  anything before I got pregnant. Then I came back
  to the university and did some research in a
  so-called research assistant professorship, one
  of the short ones I mean, until I gave birth.

52
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• IDENTITY
• P59 Now I am a housewife. That was why we moved
  down here abroad among other things. We thought
  that you can always work, and then we went down
  there. It fitted in fine with my husbands work.
  It fitted in with his plans, and then it also
  seemed to suit me, to get a little out.
• P63 After my PhD I worked as a consultant in N
  abroad, its a position that is equivalent to
  academic administrative personnel here in DK.
  And it was at that time I decided to leave
  research.

53
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• IDENTITY
• P85 When my PhD was almost finished, I could see
  that I probably wasnt meant to be a research
  scientist in the university world. It didnt
  really fit me. Im probably not that innovative,
  Im more like the one who implements things in
  stead. And that doesnt go very well with the
  university. I dont think that I was aware of it
  at the time it was more like I just had the
  feeling deep inside, and Ive learnt from that
  kind of feeling over time. Then I started to
  think about what to do then, and I didnt feel
  like becoming a teacher in upper secondary
  school. Back then I had actually applied for an
  educational position as a hospital physicist, but
  then I was contacted and asked whether I wanted
  to try it research out. but I think that they
  as well as myself found out that it didnt work
  out, and it was probably in a wrong direction
  compared to what I am actually good at. as I
  mentioned, Im better at implementing things,
  than being the innovative type. I just had to
  learn that.

54
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• IDENTITY
• P87 From 94 to 95 there was a period where I was
  a little doubtful of my career, because I was
  rather confident that I would not be a researcher
  my whole life. So I investigated all the jobs,
  there is probably not more than 5 in Denmark,
  where one could use my masters degree. I dont
  know if you know that, but we had a high
  unemployment rate for academics in 93 to 94.
• To make a long story short, I never got the job I
  wanted, so I started a PHD, which I was offered,
  but I wasnt that interested because a PHD leads
  to a position as a researcher and I actually
  wrote a Prize report to avoid doing a PHD,
  because I thought that made me qualified for a
  position, but well I also got a PHD and then I
  started that. I was very persistent I finished
  in 3.0 years because I was beginning to get tired
  of the university environment and after that I
  got a job a Q outside academia.

55
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• Females who have left due to lack of position
• ST So did you feel okay with it? I know you
  would have liked to get a position, but you would
  probably have applied to other places anyway?
• P71 I think I would have.
• ST But not necessarily outside academia? Was it
  deliberate that you sought away from that world?
• P71 Not really. There wasn't that much to get
  at the university. But as I've said, I applied
  for a job at the X University. But sadly, I
  didn't get the money. It's not all who can get
  the money too bad.
• P78 Then I sought some short scholarships, for
  three months, but didnt get any. I got some nice
  feedback about being qualified, but they had
  found someone else. Then I began seeking ordinary
  employment, and then I got employed outside
  academia in March _ in 92.

56
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• NO POSITION OFFERED WORKPLACE ENVIRONMENT
• P75 There were other reasons why I may have
  wanted to change jobs anyway, because I had a
  couple of conflicts with the professor at X
  University. Officially that had nothing to do
  with my dismissal, I was made redundant due to
  financial reasons.
• MH How did they react when you told them you
  were leaving your job?
• P76 Well, quite a few were a part of the
  process. Their wish was that I remained at X so
  that I could contribute to the sandbox, they
  wanted me to participate in building castles in
  the sand, to use the imagery_.
• MH So you should have been offered a permanent
  position?
• P76 I should have had a permanent position,
  supported by those people wherever they happen to
  be working So first of all, my closest
  colleagues were fighting to make the vacant
  position fit my field of research. But there
  were more prominent forces working to define it
  differently and who twisted the definition of the
  field so that it did not cover my area of
  research. They simply got one of their proselytes
  to partition in the screening of candidates for
  the position and in his evaluation of me this
  person wrote that my work was not within the
  wanted field.

57
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (FEMALE
LEAVERS)

• NO POSITION OFFERED WORKPLACE ENVIRONMENT
• Continued
• P76 Even though one of my collaborators wrote a
  letter of complaint to the committee. Going by
  the definition of one of the leading journals in
  the field, my area could not be more mainstream,
  but they defined it as a highly specialised
  branch.
• MH So they hired someone to work in a different
  department?
• P76 Well, shortly prior to this the, professor
  had worked with this theorist who got the job. So
  he had a natural interest in him getting the job.
  It is the rules of the game, the professor wanted
  to keep his playmates

58
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (MALE
LEAVERS)

• IDENTITY
• A number of the MALE LEAVERS also cannot see
  themselves in academia. In some respects they fit
  our hypotheses about the female physicists in
  terms of poor teachers, field interest and
  competition.
• P74 I was enrolled at Y University. I thought
  that the deeper I got into my field, the better.
  And then in 1996, I took a leave and worked
  outside academia. At that point I had run into a
  lot of challenges in terms of my education. There
  had been some teachers who I thought were quite
  incompetent, and I wasnt very happy with the
  program as a whole. The subjects were very
  theoretical and extremely difficult to
  comprehend. ... Well, already at that point 2
  years into his study, I was considering that it
  might be something else I wanted to do. Its
  funny because I first began to consider Ø as an
  alternative career right at the time when I am
  about to start my PhD. The first time I thought
  about it was while I was waiting to find out
  whether I had been granted the PhD.

59
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (MALE
LEAVERS)

• IDENTITY COMPETITION
• P81 While I was working as a substitute senior
  lecturer, I could see that my small speciality
  was waning out. I didnt write any great articles
  and I didnt have any grand questions to ask. The
  application with XX was doubtful, to say the
  least, and at one point a lecturer position was
  posted, a permanent employment that is, which I
  didnt get. At the age of 40, I took a step back
  and asked myself what I wanted to do with my
  life. I told myself that, 1) I was educated very
  late in life I was 32 when I finished my
  masters, and after that I spent all those years
  doing the teacher training course and so forth.
  2) I had to take a look at my competition
  firstly, the others were all younger than me, and
  secondly, they had all worked at these expensive
  places in the US, had had children while working
  there. The competition was very strong. They were
  just better than me. I thought to myself, I have
  two options now I can ask my friends at the
  university to do a little bit of nepotism in my
  favour and make them post a position that only I
  am able to apply for. Its been done before, but
  I didnt really want to do that. I could also
  begin to do post docs in temporary research
  positions.

60
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (MALE
LEAVERS)

• The role of family life in relation to leaving a
  research career in physics.
• MH What do you think you had to give up compared
  to when you worked as a researcher? Was there a
  prize to pay went you left the researcher
  position?
• P58 Yes, I had to pay a lot. I still cry because
  of that. Ive dreamt about being an astronomer
  since I was four years old and that is what I
  have been living for, so it really hurts and I
  had to think twice before the arrangement of this
  interview, because I know that there are some
  things that still hurt. I therefore repress these
  things, because its all these things Ive dreamt
  about all my life and worked hard for. And its
  completely paradoxical, because later the same
  day that I accepted the position at Æ I was
  also offered a visiting professorship at Ø a
  three year professorship and that was the first
  step to become professor and during my career I
  have dreamt about it. I had hoped that at the
  same time I accepted the position at Æ, I would
  not get this professorship and of cause I did get
  it.

61
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (MALE
LEAVERS)

• FAMILY LIFE
• Continued
• P58 It was a very bitter pill to swallow, that I
  had to decline that position I cant remember
  if we had signed the contract for the new house
  and so on. But I could have returned to academia,
  if it was what I wanted at any cost, but at that
  time I had made my decision and that was just too
  bad.
• MH That must have been some huge decisions.
• P58 Yes I had many sleepless nights. It was very
  hard. If you had to give up what you have wished
  with all of your soul. Sometimes you have to let
  the rational things in your life decide, like
  where will you live with your family and can you
  create a safe and nice home for your children.
  And maybe not be that much away from your family.
  My wife and I commuted and it took an hour and a
  quarter each way an hour and a quarter times two
  thats two and a half hours. That is what you
  take from your children. Now Ive got ten minutes
  to work and two more hours with my children every
  day. And that is also something you consider.

62
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (MALE
LEAVERS)
FAMILY LIFE NO JOB OFFER P79 I got a research
assistant position until I could apply for a PhD,
and then I was accepted, or what you call it, and
started in 1998 until 2001, when I finished.
and well, that is also where my research career
ended, because my wife started her job in Aarhus
and I looked into the options of continuing my
career in Aarhus and I also looked into the job
opportunities elsewhere. I decided at the time
that the options in Aarhus were not very good for
my future career. So in 2002 I started something
new.
63
Leaving Physics Reasons for leaving (MALE
LEAVERS)
FAMILY LIFE OUTREACH OF RESEARCH LD So you
started your graduate studies and then after two
years you quit. What happened to the goal of
doing scientific research? P84 Well, I had had
a chance to get a closer look at the world of
scientists, and I realised that the field I was
specialising in did not offer a particularly
exiting scientific environment. In the field I
was specialising in, I think there were about
three groups in the world as a whole dealing with
that at the time. So those three groups published
articles aimed at each other, and that was that.
So, in that respect, they were pretty closed in
on themselves as communities. That did not appeal
to me. That was probably what primarily put me
off. P84 The fact that I met my future wife
at that time probably did something to chance my
priorities as well. LD You met her in
America? P84 Yes. So, suddenly, I had someone
besides myself to consider. LD So that
affected your choice as well? P84 It did.
64
Leaving Physics Reflections (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• Workplace environment - Relations about
  colleagues left behind
• P66 They are extremely sweet people. And I have
  known them because I was a student assistant at Y
  since 91. When I began at Y it was like coming
  home. Do you know that feeling of coming in a
  summerhouse in which you have spent a lot of
  time? Shortly after I was employed there, three
  of my old fellow-students were employed in some
  department at Y. A lot of people with whom I have
  studied. It was the sense of coming home. When I
  was attending conferences, I met people I had
  known through a lot of years. And those people
  were really nice.
• MH Was it grieving to leave a workplace like
  that?
• P66 It was not the workplace or the working
  environment. But the people, yes. I think I was
  cut off from a lot of people.

65
Leaving Physics Reflections (FEMALE LEAVERS)

• P75 Yes, I think it was an exciting place to be.
  Working in the grey zone between physics and the
  other disciplines was very interesting,
  scientifically. There were also nice colleagues -
  if it hadnt been for him, I would probably have
  been there still. But I dont know if I had been
  happier than I am now. I am actually happy with
  what I do now. But I am not happy with the
  circumstances under which I had to leave tulip. I
  am not discontent with being a college teacher.
• MH Do you feel that you have left physics?
• P75 No, but I have left scientific research. I
  have plenty of challenges, but what I do miss is
  the international collaboration. That was fun.
  Meeting with colleagues two or three times a year
  at minor conferences, workshops, etc., working
  with people that you had got to know quite well
  and being able to do things together that you
  could not do on your own. That got me flying.
  That is what I miss. But it is not a permanent
  feeling, but the international network is what I
  do miss in my contemporary job. A network where
  people meet now and then and exchange research
  experiences that is fun!

66
Gender DifferencesCareer path (LEAVERS)

• LD Yes. _ So you have had a mentor, you have
  talked about your
• supervisor before, who maybe not pushed you, but
  encouraged you to do a
• PhD?
• P90 Yes. You could call him a mentor on some
  level. I think
• he was a person high up in the hierarchy.
• LD Yes. Has he helped you in your career?
• P90 Yes, he helped me with - . I do not think it
  would have
• been so easy to get a PhD at the place I got it
  if it was not for him. He got
• me in touch with the person who became my
  supervisor there, plus he
• put in a good word for me with the important
  people, the decision makers
• in the committee. And my supervisor for my PhD
  has definitely been
• beneficial for my career, has helped me get to
  the right places, publish in
• the right places, get money for travelling grants
  and so on, which I do not
• think I would necessarily have gotten if it was
  not for him. I have also
• received grants that I did not necessarily feel
  qualified for, but because
• he could help me and put in a good word for me,
  then - .

67
Gender DifferencesCareer path (LEAVERS)

• LD Do you think it had any significance that
  they were men?
• P79 _ No, I think it is the other way around.
  There are very few women in
• physics, as I am sure you know. I think it is a
  lot easier to be a woman, because